Anyone else see this??

[stka]

Not arguing with you. Explain the age thing how does that work exactly. I always kinda followed the point thing b/c around my area everyone shoots small spikes and other small racks. no real management at all. It always kinda made sense with the points system to me. Understand the bad genetics thing also but how do you know anything about their genetics if they are 115lbs and shot before they get a chance to grow into their bigboy horns?lol

I post this picture a lot to make this point, but it's one from my own trail camera and demonstrates an issue with antler restrictions. I wouldn't be able to shoot this buck, but it's pretty clear he's not going to be passing on great antler genes.

[lyndaker]

K thanks for the example. How would the age system work? Do you gotta let a trophy go case his birth certificate doesnt jive?

[stka]

I think the idea is just less buck harvest overall, allowing more to get older. The biggest thing NY could do to help the heard health would be to allow logging on state land or more forest fires. But I used to do a lot of hiking and I wouldn't want to see all the (new) old growth hardwoods cut. I don't know how many of you have seen the real old growth woods, but it's an impressive experience.

[upstatehunter]

There are a lot of things NYS DEC could do to make hunting in NY a viable income for the state.  But to be honest, our state has more money trouble than it can ever overcome.....So greedy politicians and appointed personnel  will never be able to balance the budget, even with the use(theft) of wildlife funds.
Will it change??? It can.....there were some people in the proper positions to make regulations that made sense and were to benefit hunters and wildlife, but they are gone.

[Inwellb4light]

While AR's are a step in the right direction and do show some effort on the part of the DEC the more i learn about them the less i agree.  I attended a Deer and Deer Hunting seminar last february where Charles Alshiemer was the speaker.  After the seminar i had a long talk with him and he explained to me the problem with the 3 points on a side law. 

For example two 1.5y/o bucks with different fathers are dropped within days of eachother.  One buck is sporting 7 inch spikes the other at a year and a half is sporting a small 6 pt rack.  In this case the law would protect the genetically inferior spike buck while making the same age 6 pt a target.

An other perfect example of why they are not a fool proof answer and they protect the genetically inferior is the point that stka makes.  That deer based on body size alone and the fact that his belly is starting to sag is most likley a 3.5 maybe 4.5 year old deer.  But the fact that he has poor genetics but is a mature deer AR's would make it illegal to harvest that deer. He should definitely be culled from the herd.

Like I said it is a step in the right direction and while it will work it will take much longer (5-6years) to really take effect and notice a difference in the deer herd. 

The age structure management is nothing but a pipe dream of mine that would probably never happen, because the money it would take to educate NYS hunters of how to select deer for harvest based on age structure would never make fiscal sense to NYS. 

They would have to do a class similar to a waterfowl identification course.  They would need to teach how to recognize factors of maturing age in whitetails such as the saggin belly, sway back, and facial features.  As well as teaching field scoring whitetails to know what features they are looking for in a mature whitetail rack.(Not always being a whole bunch of points)

If NYS could get their deer herd to the point at which it had a large population of mature bucks thus making it a destination for non resident hunters that additional revenue would more than cover the missing revenue of the lost NYS hunters.  Plus you may begin to reagin some of those hunters that stopped buying licenses.

[Inwellb4light]

I will add that recently the growing trend is management based on ago structure, and year after year there are more and more guys and clubs practicing this on their own properties and reaping the benefits. 

[hunts2long]

First, I don't see the xbow as a great tool for the poachers, hard to get out the window. Poachers are going to poach. Second, gun season after Dec 1st in this area will be just another big kill off like it was with the late Black Powder season. Also, over the years I have seen many bucks already dropping horns by then. Two very nice 8 pointers in the last 3 years. I don't bow hunt, but I do understand why bowhunters are feeling the way they do about the xbow. As far as management of the deer herd in NYS. There is work to be done. It is a big state with very different hunting options between North/South and even Western NYS. You see that by the regulations between the areas....Good Luck to you and bOOts....look forward to see you again soon....hunts2long

[Inwellb4light]

First, I don't see the xbow as a great tool for the poachers, hard to get out the window. Poachers are going to poach. Second, gun season after Dec 1st in this area will be just another big kill off like it was with the late Black Powder season. Also, over the years I have seen many bucks already dropping horns by then. Two very nice 8 pointers in the last 3 years. I don't bow hunt, but I do understand why bowhunters are feeling the way they do about the xbow. As far as management of the deer herd in NYS. There is work to be done. It is a big state with very different hunting options between North/South and even Western NYS. You see that by the regulations between the areas....Good Luck to you and bOOts....look forward to see you again soon....hunts2long

Thanks Doug and good luck to you as well.

And i do agree with you completely, i should have specified.  These management practices would be for the southern tier and western NY.  As of the past 10 years the park has somewhat come to manage itself.  With minimal hunting pressure in such a vast expanse of wilderness up there these days there is no way such a small amount of hunters can put a sizable dent in the adk park deer population.  Therefore management practices up there really arent as crucial as they would be in the south.

[flukeman]

What our politicians can not figure out is that we are not loosing hunters because of opportunity. We have plenty of opportunity, I could have legally taken 5 deer last year. I choose not to, because I never eat more than two.

The problem is demographics.


1.) The largest portion of hunters are blue collar. We have lost probably 50,000 blue collar jobs in Central New York alone. when you start to think of the companies who have left or no longer exist: Building of Oswego nuke plants, GE, Carrier, Armstrong, Papermills, Nestle, Sealright, Birdseye, Alcan, and Millers to name a few. Then you take in account the ones that stayed but went from 1200 employees to lets say 400 employees. Now you multiply that by the whole states loss.

2.) Blue collar families are brought up differently than white collar families as far as opportunities or disposable income and then you add in the boom in computers and their games. Now our youth are being exposed to hunting at a much lesser degree than 10 years ago, they just plain have different interests these days.

3.) People are leaving New York in droves to find employment above minimum wage. We have replaced all those 35,000 - 50,000 blue collar jobs with minimum wage dollar stores, drug stores, and fast food chains.

4.) There is a new type of Wall Street. The past 5 years or so groups of people from down state and New Jersey who have had extra disposable income have bought up a lot of the old farms (for example: Tug Hill) and become land speculators. They pool their money, buy old farms for $100,000 and turn around and market them for $200,000. It was tedious for a friend of mine to find a 100 acre farm for a reasonable price up in the Sandy Creek area a few years back to raise his family because of this land speculating.

5.) Gas prices have doubled in the last couple of years. People can not afford to travel to hunt anymore, and if they do not have local locations just don't bother getting a license anymore. Most of us think everyone is like us. There were a lot of people who only bought a license for that one trip a year, that they are choosing to no longer take. The casual hunter is not willing to throw that money any longer.

These are the things that have changed the landscape of deer hunting in New York. The politicians can create all the opportunity they want to kill the herd to a level that will satisfy the insurance companies. The fact is, there are not enough of us to accomplish their goal and there will not be until they address the issue of the economy in NY.

As far as the seasons changing and this youth hunt or one big season. The last thing we need is people hunting with long range firearms (slugs/bullets) while the leaves are still on the trees!

[Inwellb4light]

What our politicians can not figure out is that we are not loosing hunters because of opportunity. We have plenty of opportunity, I could have legally taken 5 deer last year. I choose not to, because I never eat more than two.

The problem is demographics.


1.) The largest portion of hunters are blue collar. We have lost probably 50,000 blue collar jobs in Central New York alone. when you start to think of the companies who have left or no longer exist: Building of Oswego nuke plants, GE, Carrier, Armstrong, Papermills, Nestle, Sealright, Birdseye, Alcan, and Millers to name a few. Then you take in account the ones that stayed but went from 1200 employees to lets say 400 employees. Now you multiply that by the whole states loss.

2.) Blue collar families are brought up differently than white collar families as far as opportunities or disposable income and then you add in the boom in computers and their games. Now our youth are being exposed to hunting at a much lesser degree than 10 years ago, they just plain have different interests these days.

3.) People are leaving New York in droves to find employment above minimum wage. We have replaced all those 35,000 - 50,000 blue collar jobs with minimum wage dollar stores, drug stores, and fast food chains.

4.) There is a new type of Wall Street. The past 5 years or so groups of people from down state and New Jersey who have had extra disposable income have bought up a lot of the old farms (for example: Tug Hill) and become land speculators. They pool their money, buy old farms for $100,000 and turn around and market them for $200,000. It was tedious for a friend of mine to find a 100 acre farm for a reasonable price up in the Sandy Creek area a few years back to raise his family because of this land speculating.

5.) Gas prices have doubled in the last couple of years. People can not afford to travel to hunt anymore, and if they do not have local locations just don't bother getting a license anymore. Most of us think everyone is like us. There were a lot of people who only bought a license for that one trip a year, that they are choosing to no longer take. The casual hunter is not willing to throw that money any longer.

These are the things that have changed the landscape of deer hunting in New York. The politicians can create all the opportunity they want to kill the herd to a level that will satisfy the insurance companies. The fact is, there are not enough of us to accomplish their goal and there will not be until they address the issue of the economy in NY.

As far as the seasons changing and this youth hunt or one big season. The last thing we need is people hunting with long range firearms (slugs/bullets) while the leaves are still on the trees!

Great post

[Raquettedacker]

5. 5.Manage deer to promote healthy and sustainable forests and enhance habitat conservation efforts to benefit deer and other species; and

Instead of managing the deer for healthy forests they should manage the forests for healthy deer......     JMO...

[bogmanjr]

5. 5.Manage deer to promote healthy and sustainable forests and enhance habitat conservation efforts to benefit deer and other species; and

Instead of managing the deer for healthy forests they should manage the forests for healthy deer......     JMO...

nice............

[OTIS]

The state is going to do what it wants to maximize their revenue and they could care less what hunters want or even more so, what's best for the deer herd!

NAILED IT!!!

Do I care, sure I do.  Don't believe crossbows should allowed.  I'm all for the youth hunts because I have two young children that will be able to take advantage of it.  But it isn't worth getting mad over because there is NOTHING we can do about it.

[eyehi]

i agree with upstate hunter. they ask our opinions to make us think there listening. in reality they do what they want with revenue the main objective

[Inwellb4light]

i agree with upstate hunter. they ask our opinions to make us think there listening. in reality they do what they want with revenue the main objective

Yup!

Ive read so many pages of this BS that i cant remember where i read it but the end result of the management proposal meetings this summer was overwhelming negative feedback to the tune of 78% NOT IN FAVOR!!!!

That wasnt what NYS wanted to hear so they are no longer asking, whether we like it or not they are just going to adopt the plan that 78% of NY sportsmen and women clearly voiced that they we're against.

It doesnt matter what we think.  Never has, never will