MyHuntingForum.com
Hunting by Game/Technique => Bowhunting => Topic started by: stka on Aug 30, 2012, 08:49:33 AM
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Having not been able to shoot as many times a day as I would normally, it took me quite a while to get my Z7 tuned to where I'm fairly happy with it. Having done most of it out of sequence didn't help, but admittedly this was the first time I ever really tuned a bow well. Last year when I tried to broadhead tune I realized my new shafts (5575's) were still under spined, and didn't have the money to buy new ones so I got mechanical broadheads for the season. A while back I had the money and got a dozen CE Meyhams with a .334 spine, even though a .400 should have been fine for my bow set to 65lbs@28" the guides are truly just a reference. After broadhead tuning with the new arrows I still couldn't get a tight enough group for what I felt I should be able to shoot. After a lot of playing around I realized that I was getting fletching contact with my riser. For what ever reason my Z7 needs the rest to be very close to the riser and even using 3" fusion vanes I had to turn my cock vane out rather than up in order to clear. So I went back to retry the BH tuning and although my groups were better I still felt something was wrong. I then did some more research and started shooting a bare shaft with my field points vaned arrows and had to adjust my nocking point down a bit. I got the bare shaft hitting about 2" high at 25-30yds and thing that was probably about as good as I was going to get since it was going into the target straight. So I went back to shooting the broadheads yesterday and had three touching at 30yds with no sight adjustment. I may try them at 40yds today, but have no doubt it's as good as I'm going to get it.
Seems like overkill to go through all of this to just shoot mechanicals but I want to know the bow is tuned, so I nothing to blame but myself. I'd still like to find a way to get my rest further from my riser though.
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do you have a center shot tool? thatwill dictate where your rest should be windage wise. when i used to shoot mathews bows the grips were an 'inline' grip. are they still? they are a qick referance to ue if you nock an arrow, hold the bowoutin front of you and sight down th shaft. bow string, rest and grip and arrow tip should all line up.
also, mathews are noted for cam lean. if it is drastic that would be cause for a radical adjustment w/ your rest to get your bow back where it should be. btw its usually the top cam that tilts out of whack. if you havea bow press its a simple fix. good luck!
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I had a tech set the center shot for me and double check for cam lean too 8). He actually shoots the same bow same DL and weight, which made it real odd that I needed stiffer spined shafts. I have to use the shop for press work, my old press doesn't work on parallel limbs. They never charge me for anything anyway, so I like to stop in and buy stuff I need from them.
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10-4. i had to get a new press too when everything went to reflexed risers and parrallel limbs back when the outback came out. that is odd you would need a stiffer spine if the both of you are shooting shafts made by the same company. i know spine rates do change from company to company though. usually not enough to make a differance. the only other factor would be tip weight such as how heavy of an insert/broadhead/field point your shooting. heavier broadheads or field points will break the spine down more so then lighter ones. glad its shooting good now though!
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you gotta love tuning a bow. can get frustrating at times, but makes ya feel good when your all tuned up and the arrows are touching at 30 yds. ;D
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Now that I have it tuned I'm thinking about ditching the helicals and going back to a slight offset. The fusion vanes are stiff and a pita to get good contact on a helical or hard offset, at least with the bitzenburger.
Also picked up a new sight. Since my rest is so close to my riser I could only see half of my sight ring. I picked up a 5 pin Trophy Ridge Cypher fairly cheap and it mounts a few inches farther out. Also wanted to go to a smaller pin size, 0.019" is nice at longer distances. I wanted to go with one that had decreasing pin sizes but was worth the extra money for me.
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im just curious, what does it measure off your riser to the center of your rest?? ive always used 7/8" as a base line to start from on most bows and that also agrees w/ a centershot tool most of the time too.
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Now that I have it tuned I'm thinking about ditching the helicals and going back to a slight offset. The fusion vanes are stiff and a pita to get good contact on a helical or hard offset, at least with the bitzenburger.
Also picked up a new sight. Since my rest is so close to my riser I could only see half of my sight ring. I picked up a 5 pin Trophy Ridge Cypher fairly cheap and it mounts a few inches farther out. Also wanted to go to a smaller pin size, 0.019" is nice at longer distances. I wanted to go with one that had decreasing pin sizes but was worth the extra money for me.
I use a helical on my blazer but used a Bohning Blazer jig to do it. The smaller pins are better at further distance. I love mine.
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im just curious, what does it measure off your riser to the center of your rest?? ive always used 7/8" as a base line to start from on most bows and that also agrees w/ a centershot tool most of the time too.
It's a little under 5/8's from a rough check with a tape.
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dang that is tight!
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I was setting the new sight today and never got more than a 4" group at 40yds with probably 8 rounds of 3. That's probably as good as I can shoot so the bow is good. Just have to redo my D-loop since my two served stoppers are pinching my nocks. I'll probably shoot the fixed blades once more later on to make sure it's all good. Really just being over done since I'm going to use the grim reapers, but it'll be comforting to know it's as good as I can get it.
dang that is tight!
Yeah, no idea why. The tech saw it when I asked him about it and looked dumbfounded after seeing there was no cam lean. He took it right to the paper and shot a bullet hole, then looked at me and said WTF I have no idea.
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hahaha hey if its shooting well for i say run it. one thing i thougfht of sitting here that sometimes helps when broad head tuning is the nock. i thought of it after ytou mentioned that your d loop was pinching. after shooting all summer nocks get torqued pretty hard and it not noticable w/ field points but screw broad heads on and i can sometimes show up big time making te bow shoot patterns instead of groups. ive seen it a few times where we put new nocks on and it shrunk the grous rigfht up tight where they should be. sometime if your having trouble and out of tricks it could be worth a shot. i personally always run brand new nocks come hunting season.
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I was going to get a new batch before the season too. The CE Mayhems I have came with junk nocks, I've had 5-6 break already and every one just snapped a tab off while nocking it to the string.
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I'll be shooting nocturnals on my hunting arrows.
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dang ill give you creditb for even attempting to shoot groups with broadheads on your new arrows, especially those mayhems. I picked up half dozen of CE maxima hunters and they ran me almost 100$ I don't have the nads to shoot at the same target with field points let alone with broadheads, had one too many Robin hoods, the first one was cool but after that its just frustrating to lose an arrow haha 8)
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One of the reasons I've never owned a Mathews.....(only one I haven't I think, except the new companies) Check the cam lean and idler lean at full draw....may be fine at rest, but lean at full draw. Sounds like the arrow problem might have been a batch of shafts marked wrong? Or you may have a different material string than the tech.....some materials don't stretch at all so more of the bows energy is put to the arrow, or a different release...as some will oscillate the string more than others........I can shoot a 55/70 at 30" with 100 grain tips, but they are on the stiff side when cut to 29".....Have no problems with Gold tips at any length, but C Express are a bunch stiffer....My new CE's are at 29" and Had to add a 10 grain washer to my tips.....They shoot well. I will say this.... I have owned, and helped others tune some bows that no matter what was done(including a different release) they would not shoot a field tip and broadhead at same point of impact.....They shot bullet holes in paper, would shoot bare shafts to 30 yards, but throw a set of wings on the front of that arrow and all bets were off....There are times in life that it is, what it is....It's up to us to do what your doing, make it the best it can be..... 8)
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If your point of impact differences are vertical between you bare shafts and fletched shafts its not a deal with your rest or sight, and in this case i do not believe it is a problem of spine either. And if it was cam lean your POI's misses would be left/right
For a high bare shaft hit I would start by putting one full twist in your buss cable to accelerate the cam rotation (if hit was low untwist once to retard rotation), then shooting the bare shafts again and repeating the process until your POI meets that of your broadheads. Shouldnt take more than 2 or 3 twists. For left right misses you would need to twist/untwist the legs of your yolk
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I think it's pretty well tuned, with the exception of the rest being super tight to the riser. And the truth is that doesn't bother me real bad, just wish I knew what it was. I'll bring it back to the shop and have the cam and wheel lean checked on the auto draw rig.
The CE Mayhems weren't cheap, but they fit the bill for what I was looking for. I'm now shooting ~430 grains and it has some force behind it. I shot one arrow into the 3D target and almost knocked it over, and that was from 45* above it :o.
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Another thought that you can try without needing a press.....
Try loosening your BOTTOM limb bolt a 1/8th of a turn at a time to see if your POI with your bare shafts comes down a little.
Bottom limb may be working a little harder than the top limb causing your high bareshaft hit
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to add to that ide measure it firs and see how close your tiller is....
i put my broad heads on tonight to see what i needed to do before next sat and i had to make zero adjustments. just checked everything first w/ a bow square, tape measure center shot tool and a level level thats made for mounting scopes. went out made sure i was grouping w/ field tips, screwed in my plain old junk original muzzy fixed blades and impact is dead nuts. actually its about an inch high but thats pretty common w/ fixed blade broadheads. i aint cangin nothing. prob drop my bow out of my stand first morning though :o
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I shot broadheads with straight vanes today and they were all over. Screwed onto the same shafts with helicals and they tighten right back up. Looks like I'm back to start with the tuning. Wrecking my target with the damn BH tuning.
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for some reason your arrows arent stabilizing sounds like. how big of a broadhead are your using. do you have any way to shoot it through a piece of paper at about 5 feet?
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for some reason your arrows arent stabilizing sounds like. how big of a broadhead are your using. do you have any way to shoot it through a piece of paper at about 5 feet?
Yea I have a paper rig and had it paper tuned before I started messing with broadheads. I'm going to start from scratch when I have enough time. Starting to wonder if I need more weight forward. I'm shooting a 9.8gpi shaft 27.5" long with a 100gr head, total weight of 430gr.
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what length vanes?
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3x3" fusions. Shafts are CE Mayhems 0.334 spine.
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i wouldnt say your front of center is bad. should be about 11% w/ what you have. right where you wanna be for broadheads. 8-12% for field tips and 10-14% for broadheads. i think you are in the meat w/ your arrow set up.
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I was seeing fishtailing today, so something has to be out of whack. My rest is only 0.58" from the inside of my riser, and that has to be wrong. I'm going to start by moving out to the same distance as the string and then start the whole tuning process over.
Does anyone know how to make sure the limbs are evenly loaded. Can I assume that the same gap on both is even or is there a good way to check?
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thats called tiller.measure from your bowsting to the long point of your limb.both upper and lower. they should measure the same distance.
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It's a parallel limb Z7, not sure how I could do that?
Would the knocking point being a touch high (bare shaft hitting 2" high but straight at 25yds) cause this much of an issue? Seems like it should be more to it. I also have some pinching from my D-loop.
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Upstatehunter, where do you think I should start looking here? If you had the time I would ask to come up and have you help me in person.
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Upstatehunter, where do you think I should start looking here? If you had the time I would ask to come up and have you help me in person.
Read through the posts again....Knock point might be high....I set dead level with a release....
But thought your broadhead arrows were hitting higher than the field point....I still haven't adopted the use of a D loop only.....I tie a serving knock point on first and then use the D loop...
With the limbs you have, use the same point at the limb pocket to measure to the string...A T square comes in handy....Next time your at the bow shop, have them pull the cam off it and check two things....if the cam is bent(they have had some problems with them in the past), and if the cam bushings are worn.....Wish we lived a little closer together, would gladly give you some help.....
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Thanks, I just send you a pm lol. I tried to get the shop to check the cam lean at draw, but they are so busy now I didn't have the time to wait. I can check the till tonight. The BH's seem to impact pretty close but there was definitely some fishtailing. I will stop and pick up the square and center tool after work too. I also have two served knocks as inner loop stops but they slid in a bit on me so I'll correct that when I adjust the knock point again. When you say dead center, is it dead center to wherever the rest is or centered between the limb ends, or somewhere else?
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I use center to the rest mounting hole.....center the arrow height to that on the rest at full draw position with a drop away, and then use a small string level on the arrow to set knock point at the string.....One thing I found with my particular drop away which raises the rest with the cable slide, is it needs to have the cable slide very free....or else it either doesn't raise all the way every time or it doesn't fall as fast as it should......I use a graphite powder lube on the cable slide....also lube the spring and bearing in the rest....
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I had a tech set the center shot for me and double check for cam lean too 8). He actually shoots the same bow same DL and weight, which made it real odd that I needed stiffer spined shafts. I have to use the shop for press work, my old press doesn't work on parallel limbs. They never charge me for anything anyway, so I like to stop in and buy stuff I need from them.
I think your arrrows might be too stiff, especially cut to 27.5". Stiff arrows tend to hit left, so to get them to paper tune you need the rest close to the riser. Trying to tune with broadheads from that starting point is going to be difficult.
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I'll look at that. Easy enough to try some of the old ICS 400's.
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Other option to make the new arrows would be to add weight up front, not sure going to 125 grain points would be enough. They make brass inserts in 50 and 100 grain that should fit those arrows, I have some to try with my recurves and CX arrows.
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I can try that, they shouldn't be to expensive. I can get at least five more pounds out of it too, I'm only at 65lbs now and can do 70.
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Okay, so I marked my rest position before I started from scratch. Just for kicks I pulled the string stops and got a bare shaft (straight edge) on the idler wheel. Sure enough it was out. So second trip to the bow shop today got that straight and I'm on my way to tuned. The guys were real busy as expected so I hung out for an hour or so and when it got slow they both got the bow in vice and got it straightened. Then the younger guy set the rest and even walk back tuned it, even though I told him it wasn't necessary and I just didn't have a vice for parallel limbs. So my montacs are grouping good at 30 yds but I still have to tweak them in. At 20 yds the bare shaft was good horizontally but 1" high at 20yds, at 30 I shot it through the backer board way right. I ran out of day light but it looks like I'm on my way to being tuned. I'm still amazed at how much a slight lean on the idler effected everything.
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First stop at the shop was just for two feet of serving.
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lol it can begin to be a pain in the butt sometimes. glad your gettin closer. going from 100s to 125s would be enough to break the spine but i wouldnt worry that much about that. ide prefer to be over spined for broadheads anyhow. they typically shoot better. example, i used to shoot acc 3-49s for 3d and come hunting season ide retune w/ 3-60s foir the simple fact that they would tune broadheads easier BECAUSE of the stiffer spine.
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The whole reason I went to the 0.334 spined shafts was because couldn't BH tune the bow with the ICS 400's I was using last year. I think I should be able to get it dialed right in now. Nice to have the rest back out to a normal position, I was even able to go back to knock vane up and still clear the riser ;D.
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Cool beans!!
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Thanks for all the help guys. I'll let you know how it goes. Tomorrow I'm going to go see what kind of damage has been done to my hunting area and try to stop and check in with the land owners. My friends discussed leasing their pasture as well with his wife this morning. The fist thing she said was that they couldn't stop my access to hunt there ;D, and that they won't do it unless they can get a fair amount of money for it (enough to cover school tax).
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Bow is shooting great, between the new glasses and getting the bow tuned well it's a huge difference. Have to start shooting single shots, I was hitting knocks at 40yds and at 40 to ~22 groups with random distances. That was at a silhouette target so I can't really aim at different spots. Also shot the 3D a couple times at steep angle and verified that I hit 2-3" high, as I expected but wanted to be sure. My new sight should be here Wednesday and I should get to do some longer range shooting this weekend out to 60 yards. I doubt I'd shoot at a deer more than 30yds, but if I feel good out farther I'll take a shot at a coyote ;).
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Picked up a new rest yesterday to try to fix my vertical stringing, went back to a WB. Used calipers to measure and put the new one very close. First shot at lunch went 3' over the target at 20yds and wrecked an arrow. Back at it after work.
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yikes thats a bummer, git r fixd up
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Seems like I found the issue, hopefully. It was shooting fine out to 30yds but started stringing down at 40 with the old rest. Took a lot of trial and error to get to changing the rest. Got some more paper at work and will get as far through the paper and BH tuning as I can this afternoon.
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Are you missing in a straight line up or down at longer distances? The issue is almost never equipment with this....either it is the way you see your pin when you change your arm angle...(you lift your left for right handed) Will cause a lot of people to have a hard time keeping the anchor in the same spot....you compensate because the bow is higher in your sight plane....so you either "string" arrows up, or tend to drop your arm to get the bow out of the way of your sight plane and "string" them down....A sight that is more open, will cure that a lot of times...or a bigger peep....(why most target archers use a sight with just one pin sticking out) no pin guard, or anything....
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They're stringing down, up to 6" at 40yds. I've tried paying particular attention to my form including my anchor points with no change. Field points usually fly fine but the BH's tend to be anywhere from 0-6" low. Horizontally they are pretty good. I had also found myself adjusting the sight previously, for whatever reason my pin gap was growing. I originally thought my string/cable were stretching but the cam timing was still dead on. Heading home now to continue. The new bow has been a complete pita. I'm sure 90% of it simply that I suck with a bow, but when the majority of shots are well under 1" per 10yds it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a step to get there. Out to 30yds there is little to no difference from FP to BH, so at least I can still hunt.
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Got paper tuned and resighted. Had to shrink the pin gap again, that tells me something was off. Shouldn't get a flatter trajectory with added arrow contact. BH's were high and right at 30yds but I ran out of daylight.