antler restrictions.

[Deposit]

"You should have to take a doe before you are able to take a buck"

How would that benefit those areas where the population is down and doe permits are unavailable? DMP are very hard to get in the zone I hunt. While I am on the fence with antler restriction I would be a big NO to earn a buck, It just would not work in certain regions of the state IMO.

[BigBuckTaker16]

"You should have to take a doe before you are able to take a buck"

How would that benefit those areas where the population is down and doe permits are unavailable? DMP are very hard to get in the zone I hunt. While I am on the fence with antler restriction I would be a big NO to earn a buck, It just would not work in certain regions of the state IMO.

Maybe you should look into it. All these states where there are big bucks running around the buck to doe population is nearly even, if not more bucks. The doe population up here is just insane. Everybody should have to take a doe during bow or early muzzleloading to take a buck. Then they need to do away with being able to harvest does during late muzzleloading after 90% of the does have already been bred. When you hunt a spot and are seeing 10 does in one area and not a single buck you know somethings wrong..

[Deposit]

Maybe the region where you hunt the ratio is off, but in the area I am in, it seems to be pretty close with all the deer I have seen, scouted, and taken pictures of. But what it really comes down to is simply this, and I am sure I speak for other hunters. Many have a very limited amount of time to hunt. While we would like to take a big buck it is not necessary. We like to be out hunting and like to "eat" venison. Buck or doe I often take what I get a chance to. Being forced to wait on a doe while I have a nice 4 point in front of me would be a very frustrating situation since I may only have 2 or 3 day of the season to hunt. Many I think would feel robbed of their hunting season being forced to either take a doe first OR being forced to shoot bigger bucks. Its not all about those big antlers for me, but being able to hunt and put some meat in the freezer.

[upstatehunter]

Take a closer look at PA.....They lost a huge number of hunters to NY when they instated the rule....Sure people left the deer alone, let them grow...but now they are over populated and getting run over on the roads, and getting disease and dying....
So wheres the benefit to the deer.. Yeah some people who stuck it out are seeing better bucks....but was it from the restriction, or the lack of hunting pressure...

[stka]

Here's an article one the subject.
http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=3204

[adkbrookie]

j, a lot of crap racked, small bodied 5pts get shot in pa with the 3 to a side rule. imo ar hasn't helped them that much. there are big ones there and there are big ones here  but the ratio is still out of wack down there too. night before opener we shone a property that we were trying to get permision for (just didn't work out for a lot of reasons) and there were litterally, i kid you not over 100 does in a med. size corn field, does everywhere, and one nice buck that was at least an 8pt., no other bucks. one crap racked 5pt that weighted about 110lbs got shot out of the area, that's all. friend has hunted pa his whole life and never had a shot at a racker there, just crap 5pts., on previously prime land too (2 poachers having a private buck jacking competition cleaned that out before the season this year).

the big woods in pa is a totally different animal there too, lots of deer around in general, just not bucks.

antler restrictions lead to high grading, if you are killing the nice ones and leaving the inferior ones. if you have some sort of control over what gets shot in a general area and shoot tall spikes and pass on forks and sixes and take a nice one every few years then maybe buck quality would improve.

even if you make it shoot a doe, earn a buck you still can kill one and one so the ratio is still crap. and the buttons are the dumb ones so they get shot more easily instead of the does....

want more big bucks? outlaw rifles (like in the midwest) and drives (like in maine, benoits hunt mostly maine now and not vt, vt has ars) and turn everything into corn, soybeans, and clover fields surrounded by brushy cluster***** of honeysuckle, hawthorne, multaflora rose, and buckthorn, or swamps of cattails and phragmities (won't work in the adks though).

[mookie]

    I agree with the outlawing of drives . Nothing but crap shots and wounded deer from my experience . Even the ones that get killed have been shot to pieces for the most part 

[hunts2long]

Adkbrookie...."won't work in the Adks"....about the only thing that works is lots of time in the woods or be in the right spot at the right time.

Mookie, my team mate....Did the drive thing for years. Crap shots were made by crap hunters. Yes there were a few that were not found, by that happens with all kinds of hunting. There are days when sitting in the woods I wish I could bring all those that have gone to a better hunting ground, back for one day of drives. I really enjoyed the fun of hunting with a hunting party. Plus I learned the woods, which made me a much better hunter today....hunts2long

[BigBuckTaker16]

Mookie, my team mate....Did the drive thing for years. Crap shots were made by crap hunters. Yes there were a few that were not found, by that happens with all kinds of hunting. There are days when sitting in the woods I wish I could bring all those that have gone to a better hunting ground, back for one day of drives. I really enjoyed the fun of hunting with a hunting party. Plus I learned the woods, which made me a much better hunter today....hunts2long

I couldn't agree more. I do all types of hunting, tree stands, sitting, still hunting, and my favorite method is doing drives. We've been super successful while doing so, more so than doing any other method in the ADKs. IMO its your best chance to kill a big buck up here, especially once the pressure is on. Big bucks don't move during the day in pressured areas..so we go in and get them up and moving!

[mookie]

     There is truth to all of that , just my personal experience with drives I guess .

[adkbrookie]

Adkbrookie...."won't work in the Adks"....about the only thing that works is lots of time in the woods or be in the right spot at the right time.

was refering to land management not hunting techniques.

in my somewhat limited experience walking in twice as far as everyone else to a spot you've seen bucks while trout fishing is a decent plan for getting on deer, getting a shot is different

[vermonner]

Related to this indirectly and something I've always wondered about the taking of doe.  First I'll state that I am in favor of Doe Harvest as an active tool in deer mgmt initiatives.  BEFORE RUT.  We can get 'em with a bow in October here in Vt and youth weekend  right before rifle and that's great, but we're missing the mark by permitting the taking of doe during Muzzleloader season in early December, after rut, when you could be taking a pregnant deer. 

So here's my thought:  Modern deer hunting (let's say 80 years for the sake of argument) has been Buck focused.  How many generations of deer in 80 years?  At 5 years life span, let's say 16 generations.  That's 16 generations of selectively pressuring bucks.  Has mother nature responded with "well I'll only provide enough bucks to continue populating a herd and not much else?"  I know it isn't a controlled study.  I know there a millions of sperm during an episode of fertilization, but I believe you can't ignore our impact on herd reduction techniques which focus primarily on male deer.  The biology community may malign me for that, and that's fine, but I also believe we can't have the herd mgmt discussion without serious consideration of "doe harvest as management tool".  Many hunters in the Vt community came to the AR open forums and brought habitat and doe harvest to the table, only to be told they weren't going to be discussed.  Thought that was a little short sighted.

[stka]

Instead of AR, all they have to do is make more of an attempt to enforce the laws we already have. If they cut out a percentage of the poaching and filling other peoples tags it would make a noticeable difference in mature buck numbers. It isn't much of an assumption to conservatively say 90% of the deer taken by these means are bucks. I would like to see a law that you can only have one round in a firearm while big game hunting. But I'm not in favor of adding any more firearm restrictions, as it's just a gateway to losing more rights.