what kind of shape do you feel the herd in N.H.is in

[turkey nuts]

like i posted in another topic..i'm very concerned that herd may be in jeopardy ..i have spoken to many hunters in the bear brook area ..and consistantly the stories are the same the numbers are not there.sightings are way down as well as sign not being apparent..before the season started f&g stated that the kill this year was expected to be down andi'm sure its down more than expected.... i sure hope they are accurate in their assesments of the herd. i have been hunting this area for 27 years and have never seen it like this before..like i said i would rather lose a season or two than lose our sport all together....whats your oppinionon our herd?

[huntr-]

Boy we are on the exact same page. I said the same thing a few months ago. The F&G did a 180 late this summer saying just the opposite of what was said in the spring time. We all knew  that the herd took a hard hit this past winter. I too would be in favor of a year or two to bring the herd #s  back up. I wish we could find out the reason for the about face that they said.  I myself did not see the same  #s as I have in the past few years.

[CJS - NH]

Did F+G lie about the shape of the herd -- sure -- it is all about license sales. It is the way they fund themselves. If they had said we had a very bad winter and the kill will be way down and the hunting fair to poor they would loose big money in the sale of all type of licenses. After the kill started to come in they had to acknowledge it. Anyone who thought about it at all knew last winter was very bad. Probably a little dishonest on the part of F+G but I am not shocked -- I get it.

I do not think we are in a crisis. We lost a lot of deer but it was so far just one year in a string of good winters. If we get another one near as bad or some similar over the next few years then we have cause for concern. The herd can rebound but without me going into the math it takes more than 1 or 2 years and if we continue to target the same number of kills from a lesser number of deer it will take even longer. Put snow into the season and a spike in the kill for one year and we go backwards big time.

We are some of are own worse enemies. Will we pass on the does the skippers and btton bucks? Some will most will not. Killing them in a reduced stressed herd is like eating your own seed.

Do not expect much from F+G. Unless the herd crashes and they can not deny it they will continue to tell you that things are good etc. etc. As I have said they HAVE to sell licenses that is how they survive !!

[huntnh189]

honest.. this state sucks hunting in. the season is to long, and too many small deer are being shot

[upstatehunter]

I'm not from NH but we had allot of the same here in the Adirondacks. Only up side to this is, smaller deer have a harder time surviving. The state hopes you will take a few of these. Also if you reduce the population closer to carrying levels, more of the herd will survive to produce more. We as hunters got a little use to seeing the numbers of deer we were. We had some good winters for animals. This year just reminded me of the years in the seventies. We had deer, just not as many. I still feel biologists know their stuff, control to conserve. JMO

[Jiffy Man]

I am not as concerned with the shape of the herd (yet) as I am the shape of F&G. They are making poor decisions and "mistakes". Issuing 6000 unit M permits was a nightmare! Not only does it have the potential to have a huge impact on the herd, but it caused mass chaos everywhere I went, especially after the whole state turned to bucks only. It was like a feeding frenzy of hunters from all over the state trying to fill their M tags. I witnessed more unethical and illegal behavior in the woods than any five past seasons combined. I got sick of being the one, or one of the ones, who called F&G to report illegal activity. And yes, I will call F&G when I see eight guys performing a drive or some idiot driving into a field after dark and spotlighting, especially when the offenders had to go past me to do it and didn't know or care!

F&G wanted to reduce the deer herd in unit M by 3000 deer, last year half of the permits were filled (supposedly), they left no room for the possibility that all or nearly all of the permits would be filled this year. So, 6000 hunters were invited into the woods of unit M, many of which do not normally hunt here. Do the math on the potential, 6000 antlerless deer + 6000 regular firearm tags that can be filled while trying to fill an M tag. 12,000 deer! Is that number not staggering to anyone else? I can't even wrap my head around it, I have been trying for days. When I asked the question out loud to Knurren he said "license sales." Hmm, 6000 permits x $13 = $78,000. Do they think we are idiots? Is nobody speaking out at the public meetings? Probably not, I didn't. I will though.

This season was probably the worst season I have ever had. I have had more confrontation with other hunters behaving unethically or illegally than ever before. The woods I hunt were like a revolving door of people that never hunted there before and never came back. Just driving around looking for another place to push and screwing up everything I had worked for al season. I blame the unit M permits. Out of al the people I ran into, 99% of them were not from the area. They were trying to fill their M tags. I even turned down potential clients in part because of what I was witnessing in the woods. Not cool NH F&G. Something has to change.

Okay, I will take a breath now...Tim

[knurren]

I will attend as many F&G meetings that are open to the public from now on.  Jiffyman and I spent a lot of time looking at the situation in the southeast and it is ridiculous.  We've established the F&G is in a financial crisis and that is probably their main motivation behind issuing so many extra tags.  I'm going to drop a little science now... how many fish and game officers are covering M?  M is a huge unit that spans from Hollis up to Manchester and over to the seacoast.  It encompases almost all of District 6 (3 officer), about 1/2 of district 5 (5 officers) and a sliver of district 4 (6 officers).  Not all of those officers are covering Unit M.  So assume all of district 6 (3), 1/2 of district 5 (3), and a couple officers from district 4 (2) cover Unit M, that only makes 8 officer covering almost the entire WMU.

Officer Boudreau managed to catch the UNH Supervisors of Public Works and I'm glad.  But think of how many others are getting away with illegal activity?  With only 8 officers covering an extra 6000 hunters because of the Unit M permits?  That is potentially 750 licensed deer hunters per 1 officer not including those who hunt in Unit M just because they live there.  The state is just asking for a disaster.  I have no doubt the officers are doing their best to cover this immense area, but they are out gunned.  I've called them once and Jiffyman called them once this year and both officers followed up and genuinely cared about the illegal activity we reported.  Unfortunately, without proof, they can't do a whole lot. 

Two things, my confidence in their ability to either estimate deer numbers or their ability to listen to their biologists' figures is shattered.  Jiffyman pointed out that the state underestimated the bear population by 1/2 and finally admitted to it in their e-mails they send out.  So why would it be so strange for them to underestimate the deer population?  And it would be convenient to look at the revenue they would gain by issuing so many permits and ignore a biologist's figures who is telling them the numbers are too low.

The other thing is in regards to the illegal activity.  I wonder how many deer have gone unregistered because of the department's inability to keep up with the work load.  I don't know if they need part time officers or what they can do.  I wish I was an officer just to nail that guy I caught spotlighting and the 8-man drive.  It really makes me angry to see people get away with this crap and it lets me know the officers are spread way thin.

[turkey nuts]

Did F+G lie about the shape of the herd -- sure -- it is all about license sales. It is the way they fund themselves. If they had said we had a very bad winter and the kill will be way down and the hunting fair to poor they would loose big money in the sale of all type of licenses. After the kill started to come in they had to acknowledge it. Anyone who thought about it at all knew last winter was very bad. Probably a little dishonest on the part of F+G but I am not shocked -- I get it.

I do not think we are in a crisis. We lost a lot of deer but it was so far just one year in a string of good winters. If we get another one near as bad or some similar over the next few years then we have cause for concern. The herd can rebound but without me going into the math it takes more than 1 or 2 years and if we continue to target the same number of kills from a lesser number of deer it will take even longer. Put snow into the season and a spike in the kill for one year and we go backwards big time.

We are some of are own worse enemies. Will we pass on the does the skippers and btton bucks? Some will most will not. Killing them in a reduced stressed herd is like eating your own seed.

Do not expect much from F+G. Unless the herd crashes and they can not deny it they will continue to tell you that things are good etc. etc. As I have said they HAVE to sell licenses that is how they survive !!

                       yeah lets wait until we hunt the state deerless like it was in the turn of the century wrong mentality i think ...the reason i brought the topic up is because i wanted to spark interest in the fact that our herd is struggling and i would like some action rather than sit back and watch it get flushed ..to say its not gonna change because f&g needs a couple extra license sales is simply hog wash .and if f&g sees a strong interest from the sportsmen and woman in the state. that we are willing to sacrifice our seasons for a couple years that it actualy might raise an eyebrow and action may be taken to assist in building a healthier herd!!
        and to say that evan two years of offspring wont help the herd makes no sense at all.yeah i know that the mature deer ratio may not rebound from this right away .. but at least the numbers will..
        look if the radiator in your vehicle is leaking are you gonna fix it or run it till you blow your motor ?i say fix it thats all..
       shorten the seasons do what ever it takes if you need the license sales then make it a more restricted season.. maybe that will help weed out the weekend warriors  and lighten the load on the conservation officers too ..
                                   all i'm saying is i live to be a sportsman and i'm willing to sacrafice to see improvment !!!!!!!!!!!!

[turkey nuts]

              i'm really glad to see i'm not the only guy who cares !! glad to see the interest ..

[knurren]

Jiffyman and I are interested enough that we've already talked about going to next years meetings to voice our concerns.  I suggest anyone who cares and has the time to go to do the same.  Honestly, it can only help at least get some explanations.

Jiffyman even said the other day, since Unit A is in such bad shape, why don't they just close it for 1 year?  I believe that would help a ton with the deer herd up there.  1 year can make a huge difference.  I might even be inclined to do some coyote killing up there to help the deer out.

Other options... make the Unit M permits Archery ONLY like the special archery tags?  Or do what Maine does with the expanded archery season where after the normal season ends, you can take does via bow and arrow until January?  There are a lot of better ways to set the seasons in my opinion.  Also notice that INSTATE hunters in Maine get FIRST CRACK at the deer?  WHY do we start hunting the same time the out of state people start?  Shouldn't we get some time in the wood without Maine, Mass, Connecticut, Vermont, RI, and NY sticking their hands in the cookie jar?  After all... we live here...  NH can get it's tourism money a week after our season starts... how about that?

[bassranger]

You guy's all got good points. I also feel they give way to many M tags. A solution that would work for me would be cut the amount of tags in half and double the price I know I would pay $26 for a M tag if it meant there was only going to be half the amount of guy's in the woods It also forces people to by them early instead of waiting to see if the fill there rifle tag then go by a M tag. As far as the deer herd goes this year I actually saw more deer this year than I did last year but I believe that was due to the fact I was hunting a area this year that does not see much pressure and the food was there. i know a lot of guy's hunting public land said the same as you guy's deer herd down and hunting pressure up. I hope with all the acorns still left on the ground that deer will manage OK if we have a tough winter. I don't think it would be necessary to close the season for a year or two there's a lot of tags they could due away with before it comes to that.   

[CJS - NH]

This has spurred some interest and debate which is good.

I am not saying we should ignore the "problem" but pointing out some of the realaities that have to be dealt with.

Yes, we as sportsmen are going to be willing to sacrifice but I am telling you that it is and will be -- though it NEVER will be admitted -- about revenue and money to Fish and Game. They will manage the herd to keep to keep license sales up and just like this year paint a rosey picture. They will do just enough to keep things going. Do you think they will tank their license sales? They will tweak things but do not expect anything major or inovative.

Increasing deer numbers takes years not just one year.Unless you want to shoot yearlings it takes at least 2 years to mature a doe and 3 to 5 for a buck. You can not just push one year thru the system and say my herd is back.It takes at least 4 to 8 years to permanently increase your breeding herd that will sustain itself at that level. I am certainly willing to do that but it will not be an easy task. Go for it I hope it can be done!!

I can not agree more that the unit M permits are a disaster. First they do not work. There is so much posted land in M that a vast majority of the deer never get hunted or their numbers reduced. What does happen is that the open land gets hammmered and all the does cleaned out. You are correct that people come from all over the state to "fill" their M tag.I can not believe the numbers and how far they come.And when they show up it is not to hunt it is to fill their tag. They drive piece after piece shooting anything without horns.And frankly there is a fair amount of people who live in M that do the same thing. I am sick of running into people pounding around who tell me they are just trying to "fill" their M tag.

I will tell you that it has gotten so bad that this year after some serious soul searching we posted our substantial piece of property. As the season progresses we can not even hunt on our own land, it is just a waste of time.Group after group day after day would drive the land and what deer they did not shoot they drive out.Pretty soon all the deer are on the posted property where they stay.So to the posters who are disgusted with this M system and what it has brought you are correct. The M tags sell the dream of that second deer but what it really does is promote some very bad behavior and has resulted in more land posting.

[Jiffy Man]

This has spurred some interest and debate which is good.

I am not saying we should ignore the "problem" but pointing out some of the realaities that have to be dealt with.

Yes, we as sportsmen are going to be willing to sacrifice but I am telling you that it is and will be -- though it NEVER will be admitted -- about revenue and money to Fish and Game. They will manage the herd to keep to keep license sales up and just like this year paint a rosey picture. They will do just enough to keep things going. Do you think they will tank their license sales? They will tweak things but do not expect anything major or inovative.

Increasing deer numbers takes years not just one year.Unless you want to shoot yearlings it takes at least 2 years to mature a doe and 3 to 5 for a buck. You can not just push one year thru the system and say my herd is back.It takes at least 4 to 8 years to permanently increase your breeding herd that will sustain itself at that level. I am certainly willing to do that but it will not be an easy task. Go for it I hope it can be done!!

I can not agree more that the unit M permits are a disaster. First they do not work. There is so much posted land in M that a vast majority of the deer never get hunted or their numbers reduced. What does happen is that the open land gets hammmered and all the does cleaned out. You are correct that people come from all over the state to "fill" their M tag.I can not believe the numbers and how far they come.And when they show up it is not to hunt it is to fill their tag. They drive piece after piece shooting anything without horns.And frankly there is a fair amount of people who live in M that do the same thing. I am sick of running into people pounding around who tell me they are just trying to "fill" their M tag.

I will tell you that it has gotten so bad that this year after some serious soul searching we posted our substantial piece of property. As the season progresses we can not even hunt on our own land, it is just a waste of time.Group after group day after day would drive the land and what deer they did not shoot they drive out.Pretty soon all the deer are on the posted property where they stay.So to the posters who are disgusted with this M system and what it has brought you are correct. The M tags sell the dream of that second deer but what it really does is promote some very bad behavior and has resulted in more land posting.

I couldn't agree more. I think the M permits were working just fine when there were only half as many. I understand wanting to minimize the number of deer getting hit by cars (not so sure about having M permits to keep deer from eating ornamental shrubs.) I havent's seen nearly as many deer dead on the side of the road in the seacoast area as years past (except one that I was told about by some guy at breakfast who thought I was F&G, LOL.)

I am all for having half the number of permits and paying double the cost.

[Jiffy Man]

Oh yeah, next year they want to have unit L permits as well, hunters will have to chose one or the other. They tried to approve 500 of them for this year but it didn't pass. I'm sure it will next year.

[turkey nuts]

now were talking my area .. theres already enough posted and developed land .my hunting areas have literly been depleated by atleast 50% as it is ..thats just another disaster in the making in my oppinion!!!!!!!!thats a meeting i'll def attend !!!!!!